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Hey, uncommon Leaders, welcome back.
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This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast.
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I'm your host, john Gallagher, and today we're talking about a topic I love to talk about, and that's legacy building it, protecting it and passing it on to the next generation with intention, not accidentally.
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Our guy today that we're going to chat with I love this guy, jim Urban, the president of Urban Associates, a firm that is one of the fastest growing in the country, multiple years on the Inc 5000 list, but a partner for business owners navigating what would be the complex world of exiting and succession and listen as you hear that word, not everyone listening to this podcast is a business owner per se.
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That'll be thinking about that, but if you're a leader, you should always be thinking about your legacy, you should always be thinking about your succession plan, and there's going to be something in this for you.
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Today.
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Jim's an international speaker and a distinguished advisor, so I think you're going to love the wisdom he's going to give us today.
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Jim, welcome, how are you doing today?
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I'm doing great.
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How are you doing?
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I'm doing well and I can't wait.
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I know we teed this up just a little bit beforehand with regards to what we're going to chat about today, but I know you're going to add value to the listeners.
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I'm looking forward to our conversation.
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But I always start my first time guests with the same question, and that's to ask you to tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today, as a person or as a leader.
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My dad was my mentor.
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He had my baseball coach.
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You know a whole, just everything, even up into adulthood, and I remember him telling me a story when I was having trouble with a friend.
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I was probably in junior high or maybe even late elementary school and I just had a friend that turned out to not be a very good friend and he told me something and he shared it with me the rest of my life and it stuck with me the rest of my life.
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He said you know, when you're looking for eagles, they never flock with buzzards.
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So don't be hanging around buzzards looking for an eagle, hang around other eagles looking for eagles.
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And he goes there's never a crossover, you never see a flock of buzzards and eagles swirling around together.
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And it has resonated with me through the business.
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You know, when we're asking somebody for a personal introduction to a business owner, you know we only take great clients that are that are awesome people, Well you know, well-grounded, and have their values in order.
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And those are the kinds of people we get introduced to, versus others that are not like that.
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Those are who they get introduced to, because they all hang out together.
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Jamie talk about it.
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Many things come to my mind From a leadership perspective.
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Inside of that, you are the average of the five people you hang around with the most.
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That's one of those things.
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You're exactly right Don't expect to be finding eagles hanging around with the buzzards as you go forward.
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Then you and I shared a little bit about my recent story and the guys I ended up with on the trails of a Spartan race, but the name of our team was Raise the Average.
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If you're going to be in a group of people, ultimately, as you stand around, you should be raising the average as you walk into that room and making sure the people that you hang around with are raising your average as well as you go forward.
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So I love that analogy of using the Eagles and the buzzards too.
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There's no doubt about it you got to be hanging around the right people, and your dad was wise to give you that advice.
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So it was really good advice.
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I think that's really cool.
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So, leaders, you just got the number one of the best tips you can get as you go forward, and that's to hang around with people who are going to raise you up.
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To hang around with people who are going to raise you up.
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There's no doubt about it.
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So, jim, let's jump right into it.
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With regards to Urban Associates and who you are and your organization, you help business leaders, business owners, think about exit planning.
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Okay, when's the best time for a business owner to think about succession or exit planning then?
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Yesterday and I say that not flippantly If you think about your business, john, any business owner that listens to this if you had a twin brother or sister that had an identical situation as you identical business, identical family, identical resources, everything else and you came up with a well-thought-out plan of how you were going to someday leave the business, whether it's to inside, you know kids or key executives or to a third party, complete with a robust plan that you know for business continuity purposes, that doesn't blow up your family or your business.
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And your twin just kept doing what they're doing and hoping someday they had a plan who's more likely to accomplish their objectives.
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I mean, it's a twin person analogy.
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I always say and you know we usually like to work with people three to 15 or 20 years out, because the longer you have to plan, the less headaches you're going to have on your way to your destination.
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And I always tell people you know, I'm not a sailor, I like being sailed.
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I don't know the first thing about raising a sail, but if you don't know where you're going, any destination is fine.
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You know, nobody ever just throws a sail up and says, well, let's see where this takes us.
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They're usually doing it for a direction, and if you know where you're going, you can maneuver it a lot quicker and a lot more efficient.
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Love that Having that target, no doubt about it, and I'm sure that, to your point that twin analogy those who don't have a target and they just arrive, they will arrive at some destination and, to your point, they may get to a certain location and not find it.
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So maybe that's one of the barriers, ultimately, that folks are running into.
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So one of them is timing get started yesterday or some other time?
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Certainly, if you didn't get started yesterday, today then is the right day to get started.
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But what are some of the other common mistakes that you see these business owners or leaders making with regards to succession planning or not doing that exit planning they need to do?
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John, I would probably say and I'm not over-hammering the prior comment, but just going forward and thinking a plan is magically just going to appear out of the clouds, or that postponing a planning initiative of this consequence is a good idea.
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First of all, we never know when we're going to be taken off this earth and headed to heaven.
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You have a lot at risk in the business.
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You have a lot at risk with your family, with your family Also.
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I find it interesting that in all of the people that we work with, probably 40% are doing internal transitions.
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Sometimes business owners, mom and pops, mom and dad are not being brutally honest with themselves because all of a sudden, little Joey has been running a business for 15 years and the next you know, all of a sudden, you know, little Joey's been running a business for 15 years and the next thing, you know, little Susie all of a sudden needs a job and we put her in there in the corner suite and think that that's not going to cause any problems in the company.
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It does it impacts the culture.
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So those are two of the things.
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Does it impacts the culture.
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So those are two of the things.
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The other thing I see a lot of is people have 100% misalignment of their personal wealth and their ultimate exit from the business.
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They're usually because they've been done by two different organizations, two different accountants, maybe advisors, whatever lawyers.
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And if you sync them up and you put money away on the personal side as it grows up and the value of the business grows up at some point, that's when somebody like us calls you and says hey, john, guess what?
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It's time for you and your wife.
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You're playing with the dealer's money.
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Now you can exit with a 92% chance of never running out of money.
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And I think about people that don't do that.
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How do they know when they can exit and live happily ever after?
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Because that's everybody's fear.
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I mean, I remember in my dad's 70s I said how are things going?
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He goes good.
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I said why are you reading the obituaries?
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He goes.
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I want to make sure my name's not in it.
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The second one is he goes at my age, son, I don't even buy green bananas.
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My last comment would be that most business owners do not know the market value of their business.
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It's interesting to me they know the market value of their house because they get real estate appraisals or tax appraisals.
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They probably know the value of their $100,000, $250,000, half a million dollar investment account whether it's 401k or not, because you're looking on that every day.
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Yet they have a business that could be worth millions and they have no idea what the market level is of that business.
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And it's stunning to me.
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I'd say 90% of the business owners we come across have no idea what the market value is, unless they just got an offer.
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Yeah, unless somebody just comes in and makes an offer to them.
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Right, hey, I want to buy your business today Because there's no thinking in terms of going through that.
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Right, I can't imagine and as you talked about that, like there's three different lanes, you really talked about three of those big barriers.
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Two of them really struck with me.
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That second one you talked about a word I use often is this caretaking.
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You know this family member who really doesn't have any skill for the business, but we feel the need as a family member to bring them on and give them a job so that they can live, and I understand that from an overall taking care, but it doesn't do anything necessarily good for the business and it's probably something you're going to have to pay for down the road and it's not going to be a very good thing.
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That second piece is that valuation.
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Both of those, I got to believe, are striking up significant emotion.
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When you're dealing with these business owners, when you talk to them about do you even know the value of your business?
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They can't even envision not having their business.
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They grew up in it and they get emotionally attached to it.
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How do you help them overcome?
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Because I think leaders need to do that with employees as well.
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How do you help them overcome that emotional attachment?
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Well, I'm going to state some facts here.
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Number one, it's men.
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Women do not have this issue.
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We get so wrapped up in our businesses.
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It's our identity.
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We get so wrapped up in our businesses.
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It's our identity, it's who we are at the club, it's who we are wherever.
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And it is the third biggest cause.
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The third biggest negative impact to a man's life expectancy is exiting their business or their company as an executive, and if you don't have someplace you're going to go to, I mean I have been so candid as to tell a couple if you don't tell me, john, what you're going to be doing in January of this year after you've exited, our next meeting is going to be at a mortician's office.
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Because I want to get real with you.
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We have two people that have exited in the last.
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We've had five people that have exited in the last four years.
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Two of them are in acute care or assisted living, are in acute care or assisted living.
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They didn't plan on.
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I mean one's been in there a year already.
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They didn't plan on.
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I mean nobody plans on falling, but you know we've got dementia, we've got a whole host of things and it's you know.
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So if you're listening out there to this.
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The plan is not golf and chasing grandkids.
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That's not a plan.
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You have to occupy your mind.
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So go be a consultant, go be a leader, go do something like that every time.
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Yeah, add some value to someone, right, I mean, realizing family value is very important, but there's a level of purpose to your work that you lose, that you're like I had that for 50 years or whatever it is, and now it doesn't exist anymore.
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I don't go into the office at 7 am and leave at 7 pm at night, like what is my purpose?
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And, yeah, you can't play enough golf to overcome that.
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In terms of that feeling of losing that purpose, I love that as a thought.
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So one of the ways you help them overcome is what I hear is those stories as a thought.
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So one of the ways you help them overcome is what I hear is those stories.
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You're seeing those and your experience with these individuals is helping you tell these folks who are attached that let me tell you what really happened before.
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Right, it's very true.
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You mentioned that, as we hope to go to heaven one day, and you mentioned that from a faith standpoint.
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I mean, that's how Jesus taught was in parables.
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You've got stories to tell and wisdom, and that's just another reason that folks shouldn't try to do these succession and exit planning on their own Correct.
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I love that and I think helping them overcome that is something that's got to be very important for you.
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You know just go ahead, Jim Go.
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You mentioned valuation and I want to give a quick story.
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We have a client in Florida and we did a valuation on them about seven years ago our first one and he came back and he called me and he said I think you need to test the employee that did this for drugs, because you must have a drug problem in your firm because somebody was smoking something when they did this valuation.
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Well, let me look at it, because I have a valuation certification.
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So I called them back a week later and I said John, I think this is spot on.
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It might be one or 2% variable.
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And he goes.
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You know, I know it.
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I went upstairs to a mergers and acquisition firm, investment banking firm and they did a back of the napkin appraisal.
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That was in 3% of yours.
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And what that did as an acquisition firm, investment banking firm and they did a back of the napkin appraisal, it was in 3% of yours.
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And what that did was it changed his outlook from 12 years to this year, so he was going to be exiting in another five years, which would be like 2030.
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And now he's able to exit in 2025.
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And he would have never known that had we not said look here, you're already up here.
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You know, you thought you were down here, but you're up here.
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So it has given him the opportunity to.
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He's got all the chips on the table that he wants and he can decide what he wants to do.
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Having those options is so important being able to expose that to your point and the lack of knowledge, ignorance is not an excuse, it's just it can't.
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It can't happen.
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You've got to understand what's possible.
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All right, let's do some.
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Let's do some teaching.
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You use this term called the silver tsunami.
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What is the silver tsunami, jim?
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There are people my age, which is 61,.
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10 million businesses are changing hands in the next eight years, totaling $13.2 trillion, that's a T $13.2 trillion in value.
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So if you think about a silver tsunami that's coming and the reason it is happening is you've got the peak baby boomers, of which I'm the tail end of it, are going to be turning 65 to 70 in the next eight years.
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Well, in the next five years, 65 to 70 in the next eight years.
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Or six?
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Well, in the next five years, 65 to 70.
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But in the next eight years we're all going to be knocking on age 70.
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There's not that much wealth in the economy just to buy out privately held business owners.
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So who's more likely to accomplish or weather the storm, weather the tsunami?
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Is it going to be those that have a plan or those that do it, like Forrest Gump and Lieutenant Dan?
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And they just hunkered down and, you know, did what they did and they were very lucky to do it.
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But I don't want to have luck for my clients over the next five to eight years.
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That's amazing.
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That data is actually, as you say, a tsunami, as scary as it is.
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So that's scary data that folks need to pay attention to, and I have been chatting with leaders and owners, especially in that space, who would love their families to be involved.
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And the other side of that, on the people side, is that people end up having children so late right now that the generational gap that exists we're going to lose a generation as a country within two generations because people are waiting so long to have children.
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They don't have the individuals coming up behind them to take it over.
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So their ego, their emotion, connects to that business and they don't want to let it go.
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They have so much pride tied up into it and they try to hold on way too long to get the next family member involved.
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You know, that's an interesting point that you brought up as it relates to legacy.
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It's not exit or succession.
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This comment's about legacy.
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You know, legacy is for everybody.
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It is not just, it's not wealthy, it is not in any way tied to legacy.
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The values you learn from your parents can be a legacy.
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I'm going to go back to King Richard, who was the father of two relatively well-known and I'm being facetious when I say that, venus and Serena Williams.
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He didn't teach them, hey, what you need to do is you need to learn how to make money and make a ton of money.
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What he taught them was never give up on your dream, work hard, stand up for what you believe in and always believe that you're a winner.
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And if you haven't seen the movie, it is a killer movie to watch.
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On this particular topic, because you know the older generation, my generation had kids that are late.
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You know we had them late in life.
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I was 37 when we had my son and if the plan is for, like it used to be when the life expectancy was about age 70 for a couple, now it's in the mid-80s.
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So if you think, in my case, 24 years my son's going to be almost 50 by the time his inheritance comes to him.
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And for those of you that have the opportunity, do something to help your kids out now why it can impact them, rather than waiting until they're in their 50s, when you know you passed, or 55 or 60, when you passed a business or whatever it is.
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You know you passed, or 55 or 60, when you passed a business or whatever it is.
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You know people want, and kids want, experiences with their families, and it doesn't matter if it's a road trip to the beach or a trip to Europe.
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They want experiences with their family.
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That's a legacy that a lot of people miss and they really crave.
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That's a great point, too, that you have to wait.
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I mean, I think it's one of those experiences.
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What is that impact you can have early on?
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It's something that I, even you know, in my mid-50s I've really started to think about with my sons a little bit closer in age, in terms of 28 and 26 in their age, but they need help now.
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Sometimes they need help now.
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They don't need help when they're 50.
00:19:22.202 --> 00:19:28.105
Whatever that help means, sometimes as well, it's not just, to your point, financial- help as well it doesn't have to be money.
00:19:28.795 --> 00:19:32.566
Wisdom it can be value reminding them of values.
00:19:32.566 --> 00:19:35.279
I mean any of those are.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.928
I mean I'll never forget.
00:19:37.928 --> 00:19:39.573
I went off to college.
00:19:39.573 --> 00:19:42.861
My dad told me when he took me off I was playing football.
00:19:42.861 --> 00:19:43.762
So he followed me up.
00:19:43.762 --> 00:19:46.936
He said there's two rules you need to remember.
00:19:46.936 --> 00:19:54.720
Number one if college isn't for you, somebody will always pay you to dig a ditch or pick up rocks.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:56.523
I used to pick up rocks for a dollar an hour.
00:19:56.523 --> 00:19:59.941
And the second analogy that he told me it wasn't an analogy, it was a threat.
00:19:59.941 --> 00:20:05.684
It was if you ever do anything to embarrass the family, there's no statute of limitations on me hunting you down.
00:20:05.684 --> 00:20:08.102
I was like, wow, thanks, dad.
00:20:08.102 --> 00:20:10.020
But I got a box.
00:20:10.020 --> 00:20:12.462
This is in 82.
00:20:12.462 --> 00:20:13.820
This is before FedEx UPS.
00:20:13.820 --> 00:20:19.896
I got a box at the dorm and they 82.
00:20:19.896 --> 00:20:20.499
This is before FedEx UPS.
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.089
I got a box at the dorm and they called me down and said you got a box and no return label, home it up.
00:20:23.089 --> 00:20:24.255
No note, just a rock.
00:20:24.255 --> 00:20:26.703
I was like that's strange.
00:20:26.703 --> 00:20:28.196
So I asked them.
00:20:28.196 --> 00:20:33.560
I said I have an idea who this is from, but how would they know?
00:20:33.560 --> 00:20:37.126
And they said, well, midterm grades went out last week.
00:20:37.126 --> 00:20:43.442
I'm like, ah, that good a midterm, but you know these are the kinds of things I mean.
00:20:43.442 --> 00:20:49.407
It it it had an impact on me instantaneously as I better get my rear ending gear.
00:20:49.407 --> 00:20:51.383
I'm going to be picking up rocks for a living.
00:20:51.383 --> 00:20:54.152
That's legacy.
00:20:55.255 --> 00:20:55.474
Yes.
00:20:55.474 --> 00:21:15.173
So, and you you've used the word intentionality before as well and some of the things that that I've, that I've listened to, Jim, or see you post on LinkedIn, which I would encourage folks to follow you on LinkedIn, and some of the things that you're you're bringing out and some of the wisdom, how do you then, uh, stay intentional with your family as you build this legacy to your point?
00:21:15.173 --> 00:21:21.096
It's not the, it's not just the wealth side of it, but how are you doing that to continue to build those values?
00:21:21.096 --> 00:21:24.911
And what might you suggest to leaders who are not doing that yet today?
00:21:26.773 --> 00:21:29.999
Sit down with your kids when they're at least 18.
00:21:29.999 --> 00:21:36.855
And so many people try to hide their success from their kids.
00:21:36.855 --> 00:21:42.780
When they're pulling out of the driveway in a Land Rover, I think they have a pretty good idea.
